De-Spinning the Spin - The real truth

meanbees (56) · 5 years ago

Exactly, we need to hold the line and say No More!

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meanroosterfarm (55) · 5 years ago

Justin can sell HIS steem to the exchanges to fulfill the exchanges withdrawal requirements.
Not steems fault.
Not steems problem, other than the threat of this bogus steem stake.

But Im sure the pressure the clients put on the exchanges will force them to make a move.
What that move is I cant say.

But the more everyone buys up the available steem from the market the Stronger steems hand is, our hand is.

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enforcer48 (68) · 5 years ago

And I joke that @elipowell can't find the power up button.

Turns out, exchanges can't find the power down button.

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8 votes

joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

lol

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lordbutterfly (70) · 5 years ago

In situations like this... im glad youre such a dick. ;)

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lordbutterfly (70) · 5 years ago

To anyone reading this...

I have openly on multiple occasions called Marky a dick. Ive trolled him for things i considered he was dishonest about and trolled him in response to his trolling. I called him out on multiple occasions as recent as a week ago.

BUT there has not been a single time he downvoted me or tried to retaliate for my words.

The Steem "abuse fighting" community does not abuse downvotes to retaliate to anyone. Please consider my example.

@glory7, @virus707, @dobartim, @slowwalker

enforcer48 (68) · 5 years ago

We actually also try to counter abusive downvotes when a post or comment is made invisible.

You don't see it because we do it using a trail. It's something similar to how @smartmarket works. And that, we work with @freezepeach and other larger stakeholders to soften the blow.

All you need to do is ask.

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skramatters (66) · 5 years ago

I can attest to this is as well. I've been a bit rough around the edges towards Marky before and he has never sought any form of petty retaliation or anything of the sort..

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

Amen

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Are you aware that people have been downvoted because they made a post about "I tried a vegan diet and it made me sick"?

This doesn't seem to qualify as "plagiarism, copy-pasta, low effort posting, spam, bid-botting or personal attacks".

wholeself-in (57) · 5 years ago

I downvoted Justin Sun's "witness voting policy" and several other things of his because I thought he was a dick who is messing with our blockchain and pissing me off.
I don't do that often, but I consider the downvote to be a vital part of the free expression that we enjoy here on Steem.

logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

What real-world action would you consider a "downvote" equivalent?

wholeself-in (57) · 5 years ago

Sticking my tongue out at him, or making some other rude gesture.

logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Only if that knocks money-tokens out of their hand and makes them silent and or invisible.

wholeself-in (57) · 5 years ago

In my case, it costs them 1¢ and what they do next is their business.

themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

No I am not, but I know people downvote for many reasons, mine are specifically abuse or harassment only. I have no control or influence how people use their stake, only how I use mine.

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8 votes

logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

You do have "control or influence" by punishing people for what you consider "inappropriate behavior".

That's your entire argument in favor of downvoting.

Downvoting gives you "control and influence".

Wouldn't unjustified downvotes (like "vegan wars") qualify as "personal attacks" and or "harassment"?

Would you consider downvoting unjustified downvoters?

themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

People are free to use their stake as they please, that's what Steem power is, you have a set amount of influence to decide how the reward pool can be used.

I don't agree with flagging over "vegan wars" (Not even sure what that is, I assume it is anti-vegan or the opposite).

I can assure you I don't downvote for petty things like that, but I have no influence on other people's stake.

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test45 (0) · 5 years ago

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago (edited)

If you downvoted people for harassing the innocent with their downvotes, that would deter harassment (which you are ostensibly against).

You use your downvotes to punish people who make personal attacks (and that's awesome).

Why not use your downvotes to punish people who make personal attacks (with their downvoting power)?

If you say "people are free to use their stake as they please", aren't self-voters "using their stake as they please"?

Aren't spammers using their resource credits (earned from their steem-power) "using their stake as they please"?

I'm not sure why you would be eager to downvote for one form of harassment but NOT for another form of harassment.

I can assure you I don't downvote for petty things like that,

Fantastic.

themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

I have no idea why people downvote, usually the person complaining is not telling the whole story. I can't figure out every downvote (which there are a lot of) who is right or wrong. It would be an absolute nightmare to police every downvote.

I am not any authority figure or moderator, I am just another user like you and everyone else using my stake as I feel benefits the platform as a whole and aligns with my interests.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

You are a de facto authority figure and or moderator, you manage community blacklists and have the power to deny rewards and hide all posts of accounts you personally disprove of.

You even use that (copyrighted footage) movie clip of THOR wielding "the ban-hammer".

Only a de facto mod has the power to influence view-ability of posts and comments on OTHER PEOPLE'S blogs.

themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

I am just a large stake holder willing to sacrifice my time and stake to make the rewards more balanced. Nothing more nothing less.

You even use that (copyrighted footage) movie clip of THOR wielding "the ban-hammer".

You should look into and understand Fair Use Doctrine

Only a de facto mod has the power to influence view-ability of posts and comments on OTHER PEOPLE'S blogs.

Again, I am not a mod, I am just a stake holder that wasted thousands of hours of my person time to help balance rewards only to be shit on by trolls and spammers.

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3 votes

Show 46 more replies

bitrocker2020 (77) · 5 years ago

I hear you and the community agrees with not changing the code to facilitate a few accounts. Did a post on why powering is lowered will literally destroy the economy https://steemit.com/hive-196037/@bitrocker2020/d870hztcc5n

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3 votes

mstafford (67) · 5 years ago

Downvotes are 100% required. Removing any (or one of the only) forms of dissent / discussion is a terrible idea.

Thanks for your efforts during this shitstorm the last few days / weeks.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

In reference to (1:08:44) we should give people "moderator rights" to their own personal blogs. We should give individuals the same rights as the "moderated tag admins". That way, people could mute (or screen) comments on their own blogs and block individuals from commenting (or opt-into blacklists) on their own blogs.

It would also be nice to be able to opt-into "mute" blacklists for people who don't want to see "trash" (it could mirror the nsfw toggle feature).

We should get rid of the reward-pool and just give it to the witnesses.

Multiple "mute" blacklists that can be toggled off and on (like the nsfw toggle) would seem to fix both the "spammy" problem and diverting the reward-pool to witnesses and implementing a quick-tipping-system would solve the "reward-pool-self-voting-11%-interest-farming" problem.

It would also be nice to be able to quick-tip posts older than seven days!!

valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

I agree completely with your proposals up until this one:

"We should get rid of the reward-pool and just give it to the witnesses."

That kills the Steem.

Regardless, it no longer matters IMHO, as Steem has been reduced to possession by Tron in fact. Steem is kill atm.

If Tron and the exchanges execute code that prevents their exercise of governance, and code that prevents that same ability of any other stakeholder to undertake the Sybil Attack that has been successfully executed presently on Steem, then we may be able to bring it back to life.

How likely do you think that is?

When that has been accomplished, the proposals you suggest may be relevant. Currently they're proposals regarding a dead chain. Justin can just do whatever he wants with Steem today.

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3 votes

logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Justin can just do whatever he wants with Steem today.

Justin doesn't control 17 of the top 20 witnesses at the moment, so no changes can be implemented (stalemate).

valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

The exchanges backed off their votes - but remain powered up. They can swing it his way at will. The illusion of decentralization is just an illusion.

@ned had this stake for four years and never assumed control of governance. That doesn't mean he didn't have the stake.

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

But in order to vote, they have to power down and that appears to take several months to do, to power down.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

No. To vote for witness you must be powered up. Powering down removes your ability to cast votes of any kind on Steem

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago (edited)

Oh ok. I'm sorry, I've been confused by the Tron Steem Drama. I'm trying to understand the details. For example, I'm guessing that crypto exchange websites have Steemit accounts. I'm not totally sure how it all works, but I am guessing that these Steemit accounts work as the middle man between their exchanges and the Steem blockchain. I have sent some Steem to Poloniex and Bittrex through their Steem accounts.

So, based on what I know, based on what I've experienced, it seems that these accounts have access to Steem on their exchanges and access to the Steem blockchain. So, I believe that they took some Steem from some exchanges that they had access to and powered up their SP on their Steem accounts to then vote for witnesses.

I believe Tron Overlord Justin Sun was upset as he really wanted to help those exchanges power down as fast as possible so that they could return Steem back to the random people they borrowed or stole from. I believe that some of those people did not know that the exchanges were doing this and that Roy Liu and Justin and Tron really wanted to rush things along to make sure that nobody notices. But then if they power down, then they can't continue to vote with the same voting power. And I am guessing that people can try to vote back in the previous witnesses back into the top twenty or top thirty spot as they did to an extent last week.

I feel like Tron is in a sticky situation. I don't know what I would do in their situation. Do you keep the SP so you can continue voting or do you return the Steem to the people and admit to the actions that they took. Well, either way, they did what they did.

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Show 12 more replies

logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

"We should get rid of the reward-pool and just give it to the witnesses."

That kills the Steem.

Please explain.

valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

There are plenty of sites where you can blog. Steem creates a new paradigm, where you don't just provide information to your peers, but your peers can provide Steem to you for doing so. This elevates society, and our speech, our communications to each other, to the same socioeconomic level as working for wages, or investing in commercial undertakings.

Steem isn't just blogging for rewards. It's a new socioeconomic paradigm enables peers to create mutual economic support, outside of legacy financial mechanisms captive to predatory institutions and persons, and replaces hierarchical neofeudalism. Steem replaces overlords and serfs with peers and decentralization by it's blogging for rewards mechanism.

If it's done right, it's a model that can be a vector for change more powerful than we commonly imagine. Eliminating author rewards eliminates that paradigm changing potential.

Go ahead and eliminate curation rewards. They're only parasitic. Steem is far from perfect, but like a lungfish clumsily flopping about in the muck catching bugs out of water, brings new possibilities to the world.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Eliminating author rewards eliminates that paradigm changing potential.

Steem-power still generates 8% APR, which could be used as "free tips/upvotes".

The reward-pool is just an additional 3% distributed interest anyway.

I don't think that shifting the source of the upvote-tips would "kill the steem".

leprechaun (56) · 5 years ago (edited)

There is actually a proposal in the DAO to create blacklist API. You could promote it and vote it up.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

What I'm proposing is a mute blacklist that users can opt-into and or opt-out of.

The current blacklist is basically a mechanism that lets some unspecified party or parties pick and choose which accounts I can see and which accounts I cannot see for capricious and opaque "reasons".

I currently have no choice to opt-out.

I can opt-into and opt-out of the "nsfw" mute blacklist, I'd like to have the same choice regarding any other blacklist that's imposed on my account.

leprechaun (56) · 5 years ago

The nsfw is just a tag people use to identify their posts as being not safe for work. You don't see it because UIs handle this tag specially. I have never seen it referred to as a 'blacklist'.

If I want to no longer see profanity, we could tell @SteemPeak developers that it would be good to have a profanity tag that users could put on their posts. This is the honors system and it's a good idea. The poster has to use the tag and you count on them. If they don't do it, then what?

Blacklists are by their nature not something members of the said list opt into. It's for the maintainers of the steem sites that opt in to the black lists. This is the UI level. Talk to the maintainers of the UIs to no longer subscribe to these lists or appeal to the list maintainers. As a third option you can support a competing Steem site. The users that support my web-site will be the whales of that site. Those that do can maintain the black lists or make sure blacklists are opt-in only.

Take a look at https://www.steemfiles.com. It uses steem for logging in and shows you a price ticker. I could add features like browsing articles and posting, and the investors will never see their posts hidden on steemfiles.com. I could setup an investment scheme where twenty people invest 100 SBD and they get a site on the Steem blockchain that ignores flags. Rewards are on the blockchain level though so there is nothing I can do about that.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago (edited)

Rewards are on the blockchain level though so there is nothing I can do about that.

Yeah, I understand the "private-community-reward-pool" dynamic.

I'm only concerned about visibility.

I could add features like browsing articles and posting, and the investors will never see their posts hidden on steemfiles.com.

Sign me up.

I'm pretty sure you can copy the steemit code (for free) and modify it to ignore rep and blacklists.

leprechaun (56) · 5 years ago

This is a choice the maintainers of steemit.com, steempeak.com, busy.org, the esteem App, or 3speak, steemfiles.com make. There is nothing you or I can do about that.

However, you can make it your choice by changing you UI that doesn't subscribe to the blacklist you are on. If 3speak subscribes to a black list you are on, you can decide to not use 3speak.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Just because I advocate for improvements, that doesn't mean it isn't currently the best among alternatives.

I love how everyone around here instantly jumps to "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT".

Don't you think there's some room for improvement?

leprechaun (56) · 5 years ago

Yes, I do! I thought a lot of what you wrote.

Definitions are definitions though: I think the majority's definition 'blacklist' is:
A list of people who are prevented from doing or using something.

So with that out of the way. I like your reference to the 'nsfw' tag. Now this is a tag. There is another tag for worthless posts for experimenting. It's called spam. I used to write software that would talk to RPC nodes and software could write posts to the blockchain. The software would post a message that said 'test' and one of the tags was 'spam.' So, I wasn't flagged.

I think you could invent a new tag for your reasons they flagged you. Something that describes why it gets flagged and then try to get curators to not flag posts with that tag for that reason.

Black-lists are maintained by those who curate them and there is nothing we can do. I do think some of my posts are being unfairly flagged at times, so I can relate.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Thank you for your thoughtful and informative reply.

If comments are viewable by default and I "mute" twenty accounts, that is a de facto (personal) blacklist.

If comments are hidden by default and I "un-mute" twenty accounts, that is a de facto (personal) whitelist.

I should be able to blacklist and whitelist MY OWN VIEWING OPTIONS.

I should NOT be able to blacklist and whitelist EVERYONE'S VIEWING OPTIONS.

Perhaps low rep users could voluntarily add #unpopular or #misunderstood or #censorship to all their posts and comments. I wasn't aware of the #spam tag, that seems like a reasonable model.

Do you know how the current blacklists are created and maintained? Are they democratic or are they dictatorial?

Are certain accounts whitelisted (immune) from stemcleaners and buldawhale and cheetabot?

themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago (edited)

It already exists and has been running for almost 3 years and is now integrated with Steemit.com & Steempeak.com.

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leprechaun (56) · 5 years ago

Yes after commenting I read @stpthemarkymark post. I watched the interview videos with you. I learned you had organized several APIs for existing lists and the consequences of eliminating downvoting. You're staying on my witness list unless you get to the top three in which case, for strategy, I might remove to vote for another witness that needs it more.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

Do please add 'opt in' functionality to the API for users.

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themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

Why would anyone opt in?

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

If no one wants to opt in, why force them in?

I would opt in to a blacklist that contained all of Bernie's accounts, if you dared to make it.

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themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

You do understand the purpose?

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Show 1 more reply

joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

I disagree, depending on the details.

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forykw (64) · 5 years ago (edited)

I was banned from that channel (SCT Korean Discord) by just asking questions!!! Incredible.

Posted via Steemleo

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novacadian (58) · 5 years ago

Nice talk Marky. Feels like old times voting for you again. 😎

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krazypoet (68) · 5 years ago

thanks for the update bro...

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

I love your "tipping-slider-bar" suggestion.

Would the tips go into a "separate bucket" that would be immune from downvoting?

themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

They would ultimately just be a transfer a to b, but with some eye candy.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Phenomenal suggestion.

gorans (34) · 5 years ago

Cool

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Use your witness votes and get the Community Badge

steemitboard (66) · 5 years ago

Congratulations @themarkymark! You received a personal award!

Look's like you do not like Justin. Did you really downvote him?

_{You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking}

Do not miss the last post from @steemitboard:

Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness to get one more award and increased upvotes!

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ausbitbank (73) · 5 years ago

That intro will never not be funny

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theadmiral0 (53) · 5 years ago

Nice one Marky! :D

Really loved your take on it.
Are you still going to stick around if we more likely fork off from here?

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themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

I am not going anywhere.

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broncnutz (77) · 5 years ago

Why are you powering down then......at a time when we need Steem Power the most?

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themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

In the three years I have been here I have always been powering up and not selling. I still have over 600,000 SP voting for real witnesses.

After the Ask Me Nothing interview with Justin and Ned I started to power down so I can be more flexible and potentially fund new projects.

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justinsunsteemy (0) · 5 years ago

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fitzgibbon (61) · 5 years ago

"1h15 already, sorry bout that"

Yes, that WAS a long talk. That drink was well-deserved. Keep up your energy, try to relax and sleep once in a while.

Justin still has some tricks up his sleeve, shit WILL hit the fan in ways you can't imagine right now and this community will need witnesses like yourself in these challenging times.

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Use your witness votes and get the Community Badge

steemitboard (66) · 5 years ago

Congratulations @themarkymark! You received a personal award!

Did you downvote Steemit's posts because its owner converted it into a sockpuppets factory? OK, you deserve that badge!

_{You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking}

Do not miss the last post from @steemitboard:

Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness to get one more award and increased upvotes!

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ultratrain (62) · 5 years ago

Thanks for the run down on the discussion. JS can never be trusted and I would love to see the 3 exchanges get hammered in court for their actions.

Posted using Partiko Android

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago (edited)

It would also be nice to be able to opt-into "mute" blacklists for people who don't want to see "trash" (it could mirror the nsfw toggle feature).

We should get rid of the reward-pool and just give it to the witnesses.

It would also be nice to be able to quick-tip posts older than seven days!!

michealb (66) · 5 years ago (edited)

Yeah get rid of down votes so i can circle vote again.

Live on steemworld go down the list of who voted for you and by how much. Press their name and do the same.

Not! i think i would leave also.

Thanks for the listen themarkymark or marteeee :)

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afiqsejuk (58) · 5 years ago

I like the seductive voice of "Hey Marky". A great way to start your videos! Upvoted!

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moemanmoesly (67) · 5 years ago

Thanks for the breakdown @themarkymark and for keeping ppl like myself in the loop.

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raycoms (70) · 5 years ago

tl:dr?

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themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

too much content to summarize

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justinsunsteemy (0) · 5 years ago

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Use your witness votes and get the Community Badge

steemitboard (66) · 5 years ago

@themarkymark, sorry to see you have less Steem Power.
Your level lowered and you are now an Orca!

Do not miss the last post from @steemitboard:

Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness to get one more award and increased upvotes!

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Zoiks!

abh12345 (76) · 5 years ago

Marty the minnow :)

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irgendwo (63) · 5 years ago

Would be nice to know what the witnesses plan for the future from now on. Or does the "community" have to get used to this stalemate situation? Is this the future of the blockchain?

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themarkymark (78) · 5 years ago

We are working on ideas and trying to come to a win win for everyone. Unfortunately it isn't just up to witnesses.

leprechaun (56) · 5 years ago

The truth is I was not active. I heard about the take over on twitter. I updated my witness list. I removed votes that had quit, or were really low on the list and voted instead for those who were closer. Witnesses that are not in the top twenty have no say in a hard-fork. I really respect your down-voting policy and there are insights in this video that I have not heard in other videos. I will vote up @abit if this user is not too low on the list.

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sharpshot (65) · 5 years ago

Forking away from Justin might work well. He can have his steemit with no downvotes, that will turn into a cesspit. We can all spam post and upvote ourselves there, while having a classic Steem blockchain, that keeps downvotes and will remain a great platform.

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bluerobo (61) · 5 years ago

hey Marty

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glory7 (81) · 5 years ago

Thank you for participating the discussion at the SCT channel and sharing your opinion.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Excellent analysis.

sepracore (62) · 5 years ago (edited)

I somewhat disagree with myself here but for the sake of putting it out there .... should the steem community hold this as a bargaining chip to end this war And reach a mutual agreement? For instance, in the same hard fork (if it can be done safely) that the exchanges get their fast power down, the Steemit accounts revoke their voting right as well as the exchange account so they cannot do this again. And maybe it could be coded that whenever those accounts power down a certain percentage gets donated to the SPS for development purposes which was essentially the agreement we had in the first place. Maybe say 25-30%.

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sepracore (62) · 5 years ago

Or maybe it is a 75% donation to the SPS for 2 years at which point the restriction goes away forever so there is an end point and Justin is then free to use the funds how he sees fit. That also keeps him here for 2 years and if he wants a return on his investment, it will require him to help develop the blockchain. Something like that.

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gonzo (68) · 5 years ago

At the moment, I'm listening to you and Roy in what I think is the second town hall meeting and I have to say that his self entitled attitude is a bit infuriating and I'm kinda hoping that you lose control so I can live vicariously through you.

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justynatina (57) · 5 years ago

Some people are just sad....

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vikisecrets (68) · 5 years ago (edited)

#SteemHostileTakeover: I have not laughed so such much a long time like right now, Rolling On The Floor Laughing while watching the Tron leaked meetup and this video now 😂 Don't have enough popcorn, chips and chocolate for this, although it is so serious. Keep up the great work, Marky!

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popcornexpress (58) · 5 years ago

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kiwisteem (0) · 5 years ago

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